(no subject)

[winona-starlet.livejournal.com]

I was browsing the internet and found this comment by someone on tumblr, it annoyed me to no end and I really wanted to reply but I have no tumblr account!

"I do agree with you, Draco should top. I can’t imagine it any other way.

I think that Harry has enough duty by being the hero of the world, and he longs to just let go and allow someone else to lead for once. He needs to be for once the one who is carried, not the one who carries, if you understand what I mean. It doesn’t matter what pairing I’m reading, he is always bottom. This is simply because of his mannerisms and I think he is someone who would yearn for another person to take the control from him. (That’s probably also why I can see him in relationships that involve S&M and bondage. :P)

And Draco doesn’t seem to have the sort of character or personality that could be a bottom, too much Malfoy Pride. ;)

I actually get physically sick when I read a Top!Harry! I don’t know why but I hate Top!Harry stories with a passion! "

Why is it that all bottom!Harry fans seem to justify Harry bottoming simply because 'he's a hero and needs a break blah blah blah' or 'someone else needs to take care of him instead of him taking care of everyone blah blahh' I mean what?! But isn't that the whole point that if he's been in charge and a leader his whole life then why would he suddenly change his personality to become more submissive, because that's effectivley what this person's saying! Personalities don't work like that! If he's caring and dominant then surely that's in his nature to be like that! He's not suddenly going to wake up one morning and think 'you know what! I'm going to let someone else do all the hard work around here!' because that isn't canon!Harry, unlike what most bottom!Harry fans seem to think. 

It really bugs me that they seem to think bottom!Harry would be more canon than bottom!Draco well firstly, Harry is straight in the book so thats wrong for a start and secondly um hello? Draco's the one who has always had everyone else do everything for him his whole life and the one time he had the chance to do something on his own (kill Dumbles) he crumbles under the pressure! So stuff that stupid logic! Harry oozes independence, Draco doesn't. 

And the whole 'And Draco doesn’t seem to have the sort of character or personality that could be a bottom, too much Malfoy Pride. ;)' It's the stupid Malfoy pride that emphasises Draco's bottom-ness, (Lol not a word I know)

Does anyone see my point here?? 

Ps. I hope this venting is allowed Lol!

I.E.

Comments

[appleling.livejournal.com]

Erm, I'm NOT going to debate over this - who should bottom more issue - because I don't really have a side to pick (it doesn't bother me who bottoms). But I totally get that some people have certain preferences over that issue and it's completely fine by me. My sister ships Bottom!Draco/Top!Harry like crazy so I understand your view on this.

But there's a line above you seemed to be struggling for a word or a way to describe what you want to say: It's the stupid Malfoy pride that emphasises Draco's bottom-ness, (Lol not a word I know)

I think, you meant: Draco's flair for Malfoyesque dramatics (a.k.a bitchy drama queen - albeit an adorable one) emphasises Draco's tendency to be the Bottom to Harry's Top ;)

[sherryillk.livejournal.com]

I think it's offensive that you think that being a bottom equates submissiveness. And I think both sides are fundamentally wrong and flawed. People have different preferences. Can't we just leave it at that?

[winona-starlet.livejournal.com]

OMG. Sorry I don't mean to offend anyone. I was just in a bad mood when I saw this particular thread and it bugged me. I don't care about implications of sumbissive, feminism, whatever I don't really get the strong opinions to be honest BUT IM NOT TRYING TO OFFEND ANYONE :). I was just up for a debate.
Smiles all around.

[winona-starlet.livejournal.com]

I think, you meant: Draco's flair for Malfoyesque dramatics (a.k.a bitchy drama queen - albeit an adorable one) emphasises Draco's tendency to be the Bottom to Harry's Top ;)

Pretty much! I just lack the mental capacity to put it into better words lol.

[floradelaney.livejournal.com]

LOL "I think that Harry has enough duty by being the hero of the world, and he longs to just let go and allow someone else to lead for once."

Is having sex a chore? Do you HAVE to do it? It sounds like this someone equals sex to e.g washing the dishes... I can't see why would having to save the world be a reason to bottom. Is there some kind of connection between sexual positions, preferences and your achievements? Does that mean I no longer have to oblidge my partner when he wants to have oral sex because I have Ph.D? :D That's... unusual way to look at things.

That got me laughing a little (I read both bottom!Draco and bottom!Harry so I don't really care) - it's the first time I've seen explantion like that. Thank you for posting it :)

[socherokee.livejournal.com]

I agree with you in the sense that this explanation is flawed. I mean, all the while I was reading it, I was all "What the fuck?". I honestly can't remember Harry's mannerisms being described in the books, and I really don't think they are, seeing how they are written in Harry's POV. So I don't know where she found that bullshit.
Secondly, like you said, Harry is so unwilling to let anyone else take control of his life. He is so clearly pissed off every time someone does. I don't see how someone could write a story with Harry as the sub, whilst staying IC.

Anyway, what I came here to say is I don't think we can make a point in any direction. Sex is first and foremost pleasure. People have sex the way they want to because that's what excites them and gives them pleasure. That's why we can't say who's the top or the bottom depending on their appearance and personalities. Some really butch guys like to take it up the arse, while some so-called queens don't, and vice versa.
I personally prefer Bottom!Draco, but I can't find a logical explanation, because there is none.

[inkprince.livejournal.com]

I almost totally agree with Winona! While I was reading the books I often imagined Harry as a superhero, superman style, while Draco was always more fragile, both physically and emotionally (famous example: detention in the Forbidden Forest during first year). I know this shouldn't automatically translate to being exclusively a top or a bottom, because real relationships aren't like that and being a bottom doesn't necessarily mean submissive and/or weak, etcetera, but my personal opinion is: chill, guys, it's fandom! Yes, a story that keeps some sort of balance between the two would be the best, but for me, Draco being weaker, needy, cute, submissive and the like, especially when paired with such a strong character like Harry (as I said, at least in my mind), is a big turn-on (not necessarily a sexual one). And yes, I know that (not-so-)subconsciously I always go back in my mind to a strong-man/weak-woman kind of relationship, but as long as it's all about fiction it shouldn't be this big of a deal. I'd never ever apply this kind of logic to a real couple, not a hetero-sexual couple, let alone a homosexual one, and I do hope we are all grown-ups enough to realise that. So tumblr-someone sees Harry as a bottom, big whoop. If I try really hard, I kinda see her point, too. My point is that as long as we keep separated (like, light-years apart) what we enjoy in fiction and real life prejudices, all is well, right? :)
I'm truly sorry this comment is a mess, both for my English and my logic... It seemed a lot clearer in my head! :P

The Great "Bottom" Debate

[crazyparakiss.livejournal.com]

This argument is one that happens on both sides. You have Bottom Draco fans who become ill over Top Draco, Bottom Harry fans who are ill over Top Harry, and then offence happens by people of the opposite party when they read each other's reasoning.

Also I agree with sherryillk can't we just leave it at people have different preferences? Bottom Harry logic will piss you off, just like Bottom Draco logic pisses Bottom Harry fans off.

Personally so long as they are fucking I don't much care who is where. Though when I write H/D I tend to gravitate toward writing Draco on the bottom, but the reason for that is I tend to write more from Draco's POV and I understand him better than Harry. It's not a sound reason, but it's mine.

[deannawol.livejournal.com]

Personalities don't work like that!

Honestly, I have to say that you're being a little simplistic here. I've been involved in real life BDSM relationships for 12 years on and off. I'm a strong, powerful woman with a high pressure job in real life and I prefer nothing more than giving up control as a way to unwind. Handing control to someone else and not having to think about every move, it can be very liberating and given the pressure that Harry is under, it is conceivable that he relishes handing over control to someone else and just loses himself in the sensations, in the orders. It's a lot of pressure for anyone, being told that it's their fate to fight a war.

However, I can see the flip-side as well. If you take the characterisation that Harry feels out of control. His fate has been divined before he was born and since he rediscovered the magical world, he's been hunted and pushed along a path. Dumbledore has kept information from him until too late. He's still a child trying to win an adult war. If you take that characterisation, it's very easy to see why taking control would be a way for Harry to fight the chaos around him.

Sexuality is a very complex thing. Top and bottom can mean dominant and submissive or it can mean pitching or catching, so to speak. And one can have nothing to do with the other. A normal healthy gay relationship can find partners switching regularly and reversing the roles. Even a D/s relationship can have the dominant getting penetrated. It's about attitude more than who's on top. And that's before we even start getting into "topping from the bottom"...

As for Draco, I don't see him being weak. He's got a core of steel inside him that comes from his upbringing, but in later books, he's a little more broken, caught in the pressure of being a pawn of the Dark Lord. Again, arguments can be made for top!Draco and bottom!Draco. It's personal preference which you like more, and as long as it fits with the story, that's fine.

Just remember: because you enjoy being penetrated does not mean that you are weak.

[paradayto.livejournal.com]

For me it's, because Draco has Harry wrapped around his aristocratic little finger, so I want Harry to at least have some control. But still, to be a bottom ≠ submissive.
Also, I think Draco likes to be pleasured & serviced more.~

At the end it is just a simple preference anyway, to each his own.

[carolinelamb.livejournal.com]

I find the ideas that women and especially slash writers have about bottoming/topping quite different than the ones of gay men. The following is a bit individualempiristic but from the gay men I know the majority prefer bottoming. I can't really make a distinction by saying that these men are more effeminate, fragile or whatever. They just want their prostate stimulated directly.

100% tops are rare if I only go by numbers. One top stated to me that many men older than 30 are tops because "their not-so-cute asses aren't in demand anymore". Again–not a complex character issuse but simple ... pragmatism ;))

Of course these are only personal experiences! For all I know the world could be filled with men who go through lenghty decision-making and navel-gazing processses before becoming a top or a bottom–I just don't know them.

I like Top!Harry and Bottom!Draco in most cases–but then I like Draco to top Severus or Lucius.

There is–for me–no real reason why Draco should bottom to Harry. Or vice versa. It's all about what I find hot and sexy–and what sickens me. The reasons for that don't lie in the characters but I suspect it's more about which character I identify with and how I perceive them.

[secretsalex.livejournal.com]

I read both top!Harry and top!Draco about equally, so I have no real opinion on who tops. That said, I am a little concerned by some of the implications in your post.

Harry and Draco are both written "straight" in the book, for one thing--but what does straightness have to do with who tops and who bottoms? Is bottoming somehow "gayer" than topping? Is bottoming "being the girl," or is topping just "fucking," no matter who is on the bottom? That's a pretty dismissive look at gay sex. :/

Also, personalities outside the bedroom aren't necessarily indicators for sexual preferences. Topping isn't something that only strong, masculine, powerful types enjoy. Bottoming isn't just for limp-wristed fairies. Sex doesn't work like that. And neither topping nor bottoming have anything to do with independence.

I hope this doesn't come off as an attack. I do not in ANY WAY mean to be offensive. I just wanted to give my say on this. Sometimes I think the whole top/bottom debate really illustrates the way that the fandom community tends to read gay sex through a heteronormative lens, and I wanted to speak to that.

Cheers!

[ran26.livejournal.com]

Ummm.. This is Bottom!Draco comm.. I stay here cause I can't stand Top!Draco *Pales*

I really try hard to read some of good Top!Draco but I realized I can't do it.. *sobs* even I want to..

So Until now, I ship Bottom!Draco fics like an addict and I'm perfectly fine with that as long as I don't cross switching or Top!Draco *shudders*

I know that we have our own preferences so let's ignore it that way...

Although I find Draco being the fragile one between Harry and him.. That doesn't mean that he is weak.. He wouldn't become Harry's rival if he is weak.. I guess some of the fans do find Harry the submissive one because of their... Ummm.. Let's just height for one??? But when I read the book I always think that Draco is the shorter one..

Well, I also do find the Heroes be the Dominant ones.. *shrugs*

The bottom line of this is that I don't care other preferences cause it's their opinions as long as Bottom!Draco fics keeps increasing it's fine by me.. And if it wouldn't increase then I will write my own bloody fic and my own bloody plot.. :)

[nenne.livejournal.com]

A good writer can make both scenarios equally plausible by using canon. I don't think you make a good case here.

[haven-hell.livejournal.com]

Doesn't matter. I love Draco as a bottom, so a bottom he shall be *evil laugh*.

I don't see bottom = submissive but I have to admit I do have some kinda pattern, I love to read the more socially awkward characters as the tops. Somehow Harry fits for this role for me (along with Ron, Neville & Snape).

Because for the tops I already have a specific type, for the bottoms I want more varieties to spice things up (so I won't get bored LOL). Enter Draco, he's flexible, IMO he can be many kind of bottoms without being OOC. It's because I only saw a glimpse of Draco in the book, so his character is more open for interpretations. (I don't like fics with OOC characters.)

[pol-lon.livejournal.com]

I cannot stand top Draco, no idea why but I do not read it. This rant here says it much better than me... :)

http://velvetblood-fic.livejournal.com/10711.html

[duchessofdublin.livejournal.com]

There will always this 'great' debate. It's always down to prefrence and willingness to read whatever it thrown at them *shrugs*.
I am nearly UNABLE to read b!H but believe me--I have BLOODY WELL TRIED yet I only get to about two paragraphs in before I throw up my hands in defeat and move on. I also hate switching even though 9 times out of 10 this the most realistic way of sex in the gay community. Yet I-empasis on the I- don't like b!H or switching nahh nahh none for me thanks!!

We all have our 'theories' on why it works and it doesn't but in the end lets all just read our fics in peace and bitch to ourselves and to our lj friends without causing a riot ;] I have a whole thing written on my tumblr of why I like b!D and if another Drarry has a problem, well they could go and shove it up their *ahem*...
But anyway all I really got to say is :: PREACH SISTER PREACH *waves hands and dances off*

I'm coming out,I want the world ta 'no,got to let it show.... *hums while waving b!D flag* ;] x

[girlofavalon.livejournal.com]

Harry is straight in the book

Straight, really? Where?! I mean, where does the story state that he is straight? Or any of the characters for that matter.

[sasaa.livejournal.com]

No comment for bottom!Harry
Everyone has different taste

I just want to say, I like bottom!Draco
So I love to stay here XD
It doesn't mean I like girly!Draco
canon!bottom!Draco, that's fine for me

I think I can understand your point
and I agree with you with this
>> He's not suddenly going to wake up one morning and think 'you know what! I'm going to let someone else do all the hard work around here!' because that isn't canon!Harry

[sasaa.livejournal.com]

Hey, let me say I like your comment XD
I'm agree!!

[appleling.livejournal.com]

*grins* I want to hug you for that comment... so funny! *hugs*

[appleling.livejournal.com]

Personally so long as they are fucking I don't much care who is where. -> EXACTLY what you said. Emphasis on the fucking *nods vigorously* preferably ALL THE FUCKING TIME *glassy eyes*

[isoldam.livejournal.com]

I don't think you have any reason to be offended. The dom/sub type genre in which the partner who bottoms is submissive otherwise is very common in fanfiction. It has nothing to do with real life and liking that type of fanfic does not mean that you think that bottoming means submissiveness in real life. Since most of us around here are women, I think we all know that that is bullshit. I don't think that there is any reason to chastise a fellow bottom!Draco fan for being politically incorrect.

[isoldam.livejournal.com]

Errr...He gets a big crush on a girl and then marries another girl? Most people interpret that as being straight. But don't worry, He's completely bent in about 500,000 fanfics. ;D

[isoldam.livejournal.com]

Very well put! There is nothing logical about it. I just like my favorite character to bottom because he gets more attention that way.

[sherryillk.livejournal.com]

And yet, you seem to find a reason to call me out as well. If makes you feel any better, I find that whole line of thought offensive, it just includes her because she's the one who characterized Harry as dominant and therefore a top in the original post.

We may all know that's bullshit academically, but posting that sort of opinion, eliciting responses that agree with her point of view validates it making it doubly worse. I'm sorry, but I still find it offensive because it does translate to real life thoughts and feelings.

[isoldam.livejournal.com]

Ah, well, have fun being offended. It's always so much fun when the thought police come out to play.

[girlofavalon.livejournal.com]

I've read the books. I know he gets a big crush on two girls, one of which he happens to marry. However, the story doesn't state any character's straightness, or gayness, or bi-ness. And considering nothing is stated, he could very well be bissexual.

*sighs*

I'm sorry for taking this too seriously, but... what I'm questioning is the mentality that straight is the "default".

[carolinelamb.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I think the whole top/bottom debate really illustrates the way that the fandom community tends to read gay sex through a heteronormative lens

I agree with that!

One of the reasons is that sometimes the Bottom in fanfic serves a bit as a self insertion of the author.

[kitschobrien.livejournal.com]

I like bottom Draco because I personally just find the idea of his hot, skinny, little blond ass getting pounded to be quite hot as fuck. It's all on a purely sexual, visual plane for me lol. It's just how my mind arranged it, no personality traits taken into consideration. I don't mind bottom!Harry but people have a tendency to forget what a BAMF he is when they throw him on the bottom... not that that doesn't happen to Draco, too, but it annoys me more with Harry because he is THE ULTIMATE BAMF and he doesn't need to be sissified to love riding a cock like the bo$$ bitch he is.

Personality traits have nothing to do with what roles people play in the bedroom. I actually end up putting the more heteronormatively 'masculine' one on the bottom half the time lol. As for 'being taken care of' in bed...wtf. You're getting to cum either way, why is it such a chore? And the top can still be taken care of in bed.

actually why do i never see the top getting rimmed. that shit's hot.

and that is my classy contribution.

[prima-crazy.livejournal.com]

Can I just tell you I'm in love (or rather LUST) with your comment! *pervs on you*. I can stomach a switching fic if it is 80% top Harry, 20% bottom Draco but I 100% agree with you about BAMF Harry. as well as "I like bottom Draco because I personally just find the idea of his hot, skinny, little blond ass getting pounded to be quite hot as fuck. It's all on a purely sexual, visual plane for me lol"

[riku-rocks.livejournal.com]

However, I can see the flip-side as well. If you take the characterisation that Harry feels out of control. His fate has been divined before he was born and since he rediscovered the magical world, he's been hunted and pushed along a path. Dumbledore has kept information from him until too late. He's still a child trying to win an adult war. If you take that characterisation, it's very easy to see why taking control would be a way for Harry to fight the chaos around him. ~deannawol

^ This is exactly why I cannot stand a submissive Harry. he wasn't even in control of his own body/mind all of the time, so I think maintaining a fair amount of control would be a priority for him. He's been controlled too long and he clearly hates that, so I imagine he would want to take the lead in the relationship.
I don't care if he's with Draco, Ginny, or Luna (the only Harry pairings I read), I don't think he'd be submissive at all. That said, I also think he would need a strong partner to be his equal (one of the reason why I like Harry/Draco). Look at his relationships with Draco, Ginny, Ron, & Hermione in the books: they're clearly equals, but he always seems to be 'in charge'.

I like bottom Draco because I personally just find the idea of his hot, skinny, little blond ass getting pounded to be quite hot as fuck. It's all on a purely sexual, visual plane for me lol. ~kitschobrien

^This is one of several reasons why I like Bottom!Draco. From the character images I got from the books, he just seems hotter on the bottom and Harry seems hotter on top (as do Snape and Bill, my other Draco pairings). I also see Draco as being more flexible, personality-wise, and more willing to follow the lead of another than the characters I read him paired with.
...And you know Draco would ensure that he's not viewed as weak, even while bottoming.

Therefore, I go Harry/Draco.

[haven-hell.livejournal.com]

great minds think alike =D

[duchessofdublin.livejournal.com]

^^^^ EVERY WORD YOU JUST SAID *whistles*

[winona-starlet.livejournal.com]

um why are you a member of this comm?? seems contradictory. you cant tell people how to interpret bottom!draco, people can do what they like at the end of the day.

[winona-starlet.livejournal.com]

Hmm loads of people have expressed how narrow minded it is that interpreting one character as a bottom and one character as a top exclusivley, is heterosexual-izing them.

sorry for being a heterosexual girl and having no experience as a gay man :/

[sherryillk.livejournal.com]

I'm not trying to tell how to tell people anything, only that I find unilaterally equating the preference of being penetrated as a sign of a person's submissive behavior to be offensive. I'm not sure why people would want to do that, but even if they did, it has nothing to do with me. What should my opinion matter to them? If they're cool with it, that's fine, but I personally don't like that line of thought and the implications it has.

As for why I'm a part of this community, it really has no bearing on this argument since the only way it can be considered contradictory is if I did find Draco being a bottom as a sign of weakness, of which I don't. Personally, I like him as a switch since I don't think he'll pass up any chance at pleasure but that doesn't mean I don't like to switch it up myself every once in a while. Like I said, everybody has different preferences when it comes to what they like.

[how-i-disapear.livejournal.com]

I used to when i first became aware of this pairing all the usual popular fics that everybody has read. But eventually after awhile i found myself gravitating towards bottom draco more and now i try and read anything bottom harry and i cant. It dosnt even hold my interest so i end up giving up withing the first few paragraphs. And just to me that seems to be how the characters would have been if they had been gay in the books. Thats just my opinion. I say to each his own and what gets you by.

[hime-chu.livejournal.com]

I have only read one Bottom!Harry in my life. I don't really care about other's opinions as long as they don't trash mine, but I'm a hardcore Bottom!Draco fan because it just fits him. You can make him cute, vulnerable and snarky, or cold, calculating and seductive, and it works. He just seems like the kind of guy who loves being taken care of.

[jjjingleheimers.livejournal.com]

No, the other way round. Saving the world is a chore, but having sex is fun. So Harry is just so tired of showing only his dominating take-charge side that his secret bottom side, that wants to be enjoyed for his physical beauty, takes over sometimes.
I have read some nice bottom Harry stories (for example, Just Add Water by Cybele), some kind of winged creature fic by Shuishio Tensi on fanfiction.net (but she removed her account and all her stories) etc.
But Bottom!Draco is generally my preference.

[slns7552.livejournal.com]

I just found this community. I just wanted to add my 2 cents in. I hate stories with bottom Harry. Why? Because 9 out of 10 he is weak, whiny, almost always abused by Dursleys, Dumbledore, Ron, Death Eaters etc. IMHO I think that someone who can defeat a powerful Dark Lord and who has had to overcome so much hardship would not want to give up that control in the bedroom. Draco may be a bitchy rival but he's been told all his life what to do by his father, Voldemort. He doesn't seem to me to be in control of much of his life. I think that would extend to the bedroom as well.

Just my opinion.